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Post by alienation on Apr 10, 2005 21:18:59 GMT -5
Bear with me as this is a multipart topic/rant. So at work the other day, I had a guy say to me (after finding out that I like Tool) "huh, you don't look like a Tool fan". WTF? What is a Tool fan supposed to look like? Do I have to wear black everyday and be depressed?  He continues to tell me that Tool hasn't been good since Undertow and that I must be "trying to re-live high school." IMO, and I don't think I'm the only one, Tool has continued to progress musically with each of their subsequent albums. I realize of course that music is a matter of taste, and is subjective and reflects one's opinion. However, in art can't talent be separated from one's personal tastes? I'm sure not everyone in the world likes Picasso, Monet, or Van Gogh, but there is no denying that they had talent. Aren't there 'rules' to good music (that one can judge apart from taste)? Vocal skill, timing, the meshing of the separate components, complexity, etc. Anyone who has some music knowledge help me out. |
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Post by Halo on Apr 10, 2005 22:05:17 GMT -5
First of all, "trying to re-live high school"?? LMAO! What the hell does that mean? I, and I'm sure most all Tool fan would definitely agree with you alien, that Tool has progressed and matured with each album. Some people, who liked Opiate and Undertow, I think liked that music for it's negativity and anger. But how could anyone expect an artist to just stay in any one period of their lives? We all move on. We learn, we grow, we get past pain. That is what Tool's music has reflected. Growth. If any musician continues year after year, album after album with the same negativity and anger, for one I would think it would get boring. But also, I think it would not be honest music. A lot of artists start out with a lot of pain and struggle. This reflects in their art. But once you get past that struggle, but realize the "angry" music is what sells, your not making true art. You're faking it. As far as separating talent from personal opinion. Of course you can. I think you have to possess a little intelligence to do so though. Pardon me for judging anyone, but if you believe Monet (as an example) had no talent simply because you don't like it, you're an idiot.  I hate to simplify this, but basically it is true. Saying someone has no talent because it is your personal opinion does not make it true. Of course all art can be subjective. You can dislike whatever you want. Not everyone has the same tastes. But you cannot judge art or talent based simply on personal tastes. |
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Post by Bastardometer on Apr 11, 2005 1:23:17 GMT -5
The bands that "progress" are the bands I like the most. Whats the point of getting excited for a groups' new realese if its going to sound the same as previous efforts?
Its all perspective of course. I was a huge fan of Metallica up to the Black album. That was a progression I didn't care for , but I'm sure their are Metallica fans that dig them more and more with each new album.
The beauty of art , It's subjective
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Post by i'm_your_passenger on Apr 11, 2005 7:43:36 GMT -5
I'll be the first to admit that, no, I do not have vast musical knowledge  . However, I do think that progression is simply a natural process. Music is no exception to the process, I dont think. I mean, as a person grows and matures they are progressing in many ways...just because you are angry and pissed off at one particular point in your life doesn't mean you have to be and/or are going to be pissed off for the rest of it (besides, that wouldn't be healthy  ) and of course that will show through in your passion (ie your art, music, life...whatever your passion may be.) I think it is good to embrace change like this. I personally enjoy listening to Tool's musical progression. Oh and I have also been told that I don't 'look' like a Tool fan, either (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean )... Beth |
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Post by Stinkfist on Apr 11, 2005 9:41:14 GMT -5
Fuck 'em all. I say who gives a shit what that jack-off from work has to say. So fuck him for even judging you, alienation. ;D
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Post by Bastardometer on Apr 11, 2005 16:14:06 GMT -5
I'll be the first to admit that, no, I do not have vast musical knowledge . However, I do think that progression is simply a natural process. Music is no exception to the process, I dont think. I mean, as a person grows and matures they are progressing in many ways...just because you are angry and pissed off at one particular point in your life doesn't mean you have to be and/or are going to be pissed off for the rest of it (besides, that wouldn't be healthy ) and of course that will show through in your passion (ie your art, music, life...whatever your passion may be.) I think it is good to embrace change like this. I personally enjoy listening to Tool's musical progression. Oh and I have also been told that I don't 'look' like a Tool fan, either (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean )... Beth Thats true , but certain bands choose not to progress for fear of "selling out" or loseing a fan base , etc.. Bands like Slayer , Korn , Godsmack , Disturbed come to mind. For the most part , all their albums sound alike , to me. A song on the new album could fit on the first one. Bands like Clutch , Laundry , Helmet , Soundgarden , Alice In Chains , and yes , TOOL , have a progression that deciphers each album from one another yet still has that particular bands' "sound" People that are narrow minded or fear change accuse bands that progress , "sell outs". Listen to "Hooker With A Penis" |
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Post by i'm_your_passenger on Apr 12, 2005 7:33:31 GMT -5
Thats true , but certain bands choose not to progress for fear of "selling out" or loseing a fan base , etc.. Bands like Slayer , Korn , Godsmack , Disturbed come to mind. For the most part , all their albums sound alike , to me. A song on the new album could fit on the first one. Bands like Clutch , Laundry , Helmet , Soundgarden , Alice In Chains , and yes , TOOL , have a progression that deciphers each album from one another yet still has that particular bands' "sound" People that are narrow minded or fear change accuse bands that progress , "sell outs". Listen to "Hooker With A Penis" I never got the whole 'sell out' thing....I mean, who defines what a 'sell out' is anyway? Okay let's dissect this whole idea of a 'sell out'...in the dictionary a sell out is defined as a betrayal of one's personal principles or another person or persons..Haven't we all done this in one way or another? I know for a fact that I have. I defy you to introduce me to one person who can't technically be defined as a 'sell out' of some form. To hell with this whole 'sell out' thing . That being said, I prefer a little diversity/change/progression in my choice of music....too much of the exact same thing over and over and over ad nauseum is likely to bore me more often than not which is why I am not drawn to bands like Slayer, Korn, Godsmack, or Disturbed, I suppose. If a musician or band has the desire to progress forward with their skill, they should. Sometimes you just have to take the chance and be like 'fuck it' you know? Yeah..you might lose a bit of your initial fan base by taking your music in another sort of direction...but, to some, it's a chance well worth taking. I respect that. I say keeping an open mind is a good thing  ...but then that's just my opinion. Alright, I'm going to shut up now because I am rambling and 8:30 am is just too damn early in the morning for such things Beth |
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Post by moneyisevil on Apr 12, 2005 10:48:21 GMT -5
people are too caught up in themselves....they make close minded statements such as "this band is a sell out..." or just hating on something because they can without reason...
someone i hadnt seen a while comes over my house....we're listening to tool and nirvana....he goes..."hey man u still listen to TOOL? thats such high school shit...." and he went on to make the same comment about Nirvana...
I just HATE people....ignorance...arrogance...egoism....
But like something truthful yet hysterical came up in a convo with another friend at the beach yesterday...we were just discussing buddha and humanity and my friends goes
"buddha is the man...he lost faith in all of humanity..."
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Post by Halo on Apr 12, 2005 17:39:57 GMT -5
Thats true , but certain bands choose not to progress for fear of "selling out" or loseing a fan base , etc.. Bands like Slayer , Korn , Godsmack , Disturbed come to mind. For the most part , all their albums sound alike , to me. A song on the new album could fit on the first one. Exactly. I've never been able to understand how their fand can continue to listen to the same thing over and over again. Bands like Clutch , Laundry , Helmet , Soundgarden , Alice In Chains , and yes , TOOL , have a progression that deciphers each album from one another yet still has that particular bands' "sound" I'd like to add NIN to that list. |
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Post by NeonTool on Apr 14, 2005 14:40:39 GMT -5
IMO evolution is necessary, and healthy. Anyone who listens to Opiate and then to Lateralus can certainly realize the enormous evolution of Tool's music, lyrics, and spirit. As Halo said, the first two albums were more focused on anger, pain, etc. , but that changed on the later releases. Why? Simple, because emotions are temporary, they come and go, Tool realized that and took the path that seemed more appropriate to them, and I don't think they made a mistake by doing so. "The idea is, if I can't heal from my art, then how can you heal? So I've worked some things out and moved on." said MJK in an interview, and that clarifies it all. And even if it was an attempt to revive good ol' times, so what? I'm sure we all had a good time back then, with Tool, Pearl Jam, AIC, Nirvana, and I listen to those bands almost everyday, because it STILL means something to me, and that's the most important thing. So my advice is, ignore those people alienation, and enjoy the music |
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Post by Nessie on Apr 15, 2005 17:12:11 GMT -5
Bear with me as this is a multipart topic/rant. Aren't there 'rules' to good music (that one can judge apart from taste)? Vocal skill, timing, the meshing of the separate components, complexity, etc. Anyone who has some music knowledge help me out. Well, alienation, there ARE in fact some kind of "rules" for good music. There are quite a lot of psychological studies that prove that certain timbres, sequences of notes and so on are considered to sound well. Although it is also proved that we somehow "learn" what sounds right or wrong because of what we get to hear from our very first beginning on. And now about how music has to evolve....I think we need to evolve all the time. That's why we have some smart brain in our head, to learn from things we've experienced. To say it with the words of another artist: "Stillstand ist der Tod, geht voran, bleibt alles anders" which means "stagnancy means death, it goes on and on,but everything stays different". So not evolving means that you somehow die inside, or you are already dead |
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Post by voiceofgod on Apr 19, 2005 17:52:03 GMT -5
He continues to tell me that Tool hasn't been good since Undertow and that I must be "trying to re-live high school." Kill this asshole now. |
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Post by TheAnomicSoul on Apr 19, 2005 18:02:19 GMT -5
This kinda sounds like what most people think of Korn now. Jonathan (vocals) had a very bad childhood. He expressed that with their first 2 albums. Then on thier 3rd ppl said they sold-out. All cause Jonathans lyrics wernt always writtin from his child hood. People get over thier issues and problems and move on. Same with Tool and anger. People get over whatever issue they have and move on. You cant write about the same things over and over cause it gets old. Some people just want the same product over and over. While alot of others dont.
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Post by alienation on Apr 19, 2005 18:17:18 GMT -5
Done. (j/k) |
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Post by voiceofgod on Apr 20, 2005 7:15:54 GMT -5
*grin* ;D
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I hate to simplify this, but basically it is true. Saying someone has no talent because it is your personal opinion does not make it true. 
) and of course that will show through in your passion (ie your art, music, life...whatever your passion may be.) I think it is good to embrace change like this. I personally enjoy listening to Tool's musical progression.
...but then that's just my opinion. 
